Curse

HigherMinion · Dec 13, 2009, 05:36 AM // 05:36

Yeah... Why is PUG Meta so rubbish anyway? All the new builds, with PvE skills, etc... Yet, for some reason as soon as you enter a team of randoms for the Zaishen Mission or a HM dungeon or UW; the builds turn a bit mental...

PUG META (As far as I'm aware of)

1. Defy Pain WAMMO TANKZ0rZZz

2.Elementalist searing flamez nukarz.

3.SoS spirit spammer.

4. Healer's Boon/UA monks. (Probably the newest thing to happen to PUGs, before it was Life Sheath and WoH.)

5.Spare monk, RoJ smiter. (Whatever happened to the "if you have a spare monk, they can go Life Barrier bonding")
Critscythe sin.
Barrage splints0r ranger.
Spiteful spirit/other curses necro or an MM occasionally. (though the pug MM builds suck)

The above builds are, for Hard Mode, are.... Mediocre at best.

How can we change the way the majority of players mindlessly think? From the beginning of the game, this was the best way. Now the people who have been playing from the start still follow this way of Tank and Spank; along with the players who came from WoW or whatever else other MMOs.

Now we have so many better builds and more organised/synergy-based team builds. Why the hell can't pugs run anything good? We were all pugs once, until we became known; which makes me wonder what makes us different. Are they really just idiots/French?

Well, for an example, my Meta is as follows, for an 8man team:

ER bond/infuse spammer (People are still trying to work out why these>monks. Those people are known as PUGs sadface)
ER secondary Bond/infuser
4x Heavy DPS assassins, warriors, dervish, ranger or Paragon.(That can also spam SY)
1x Mark of Pain Nuker/OoV-SoH maintainer.
Cleaner or MB if required.
If not an SoS spirit Spammer is still the only thing I would keep.

The above could easily become Meta, the builds are very flexible, and almost anyone can join in. A mesmer spamming EVAS' can replace a physical.

But guyz... Can we see more of this!? It's incredible and can rape an area in 5x the speed of a regular pug and raise survival rate by 99% (never hopeful in normal PUGs).

Stop using Defy Pain. Stop using Self-Heals. Stop using Spiteful Spirit. Stop using Monks ;-)

Don't ostracize pugs, let's help them, eh?

Shrike942 · Dec 13, 2009, 07:06 AM // 07:06

I take offense to "Don't use monks" as my main is a monk. I don't care what anyone says monks are meant to heal and so are better than anyone else at it. Just because you have one skill that can let you spam Infuse doesn't mean your better than a monk at what his profession is meant to do. Lets get rid of ER ele healers and go back to the only healers that were meant to be: Monks and SOMETIMES resto Rits.

Eluvatar · Dec 13, 2009, 07:18 AM // 07:18

my best 2 healer heros are a HB monk and a necro resto build, thou I have not taken the time to work out a nice er healing hero. thou this is about pugs :\ which people that make the meta builds dont ever do.

upier · Dec 13, 2009, 08:58 AM // 08:58

This way you are giving up the ease of forming a PuG for higher efficiency.
An efficiency that isn't needed due to how sufficient being bad actually is.

awry · Dec 13, 2009, 09:14 AM // 09:14

In the hands of the lowest common denominator, a subpar easy to use build is more effective than a better build that requires understanding of game mechanics to use.

code1101 · Dec 13, 2009, 11:01 AM // 11:01

^^ this

The post is so sophisticated that I didnt understand it which according to the post concludes that I should always PUG ... muwahahahaha.

glacialphoenix · Dec 13, 2009, 12:49 PM // 12:49

Quote:

3.SoS spirit spammer.

4. Healer's Boon/UA monks. (Probably the newest thing to happen to PUGs, before it was Life Sheath and WoH.)

That's because it's the easiest to run. I prefer WoH hybrid, and so far nobody in my PUGs has objected. (There was even a paragon complaining to me about how his previous group had two HB monks.)

Although, seriously though, I've noticed that when it comes to Zmissions, most PUGs are desperate enough for a healer that they don't care as long as your bar looks capable of it. The annoying ones are the ones that are so set in their conceptions of what can heal and what can't that they refuse to accept anything else.

Of course, I don't PUG if I want to do anything serious; I have guildies for that.

HigherMinion · Dec 13, 2009, 01:23 PM // 13:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shrike942

I take offense to "Don't use monks" as my main is a monk. I don't care what anyone says monks are meant to heal and so are better than anyone else at it. Just because you have one skill that can let you spam Infuse doesn't mean your better than a monk at what his profession is meant to do. Lets get rid of ER ele healers and go back to the only healers that were meant to be: Monks and SOMETIMES resto Rits.

This is the attitude and reason the general player-base are not learning new ways. They want to stick to the "classic" way of life. Either that or stuck with whatever PvXwiki gives them.

Quote:

and SOMETIMES resto Rits.

This is rather a stupid. I thought your point was that Monks= healers and protters. No one else. After reading that I think you're just an Ether Renewal hater. Jealous you can't do what I do on my Elementalist on your Monk?

Monks are fine, but there are things you cannot do in a team with 2x monks as opposed to 2 ER bond/infusers.

For example, "we" can maintain Protective Bond on every ally. Spam high-e prots and maintain Great Dwarf Weapon on all the physicals.

A Monk must dedicate itself to bonding. A Monk must dedicate itself to Smiting and buffing physicals with SoH. A Monk must dedicate it's whole bar to healing/protection AND energy management.

Now. What looks better?

Dorny · Dec 13, 2009, 01:45 PM // 13:45

What's wrong with SS? (Spiteful Spirit, not Signet of Spirits) :S

And by common PuG builds, you mean "Animate Flesh Golem"?

Some lack of detail here...

DigitalFear · Dec 13, 2009, 02:04 PM // 14:04

Physway>all.

The Riven · Dec 13, 2009, 02:25 PM // 14:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by DigitalFear

What's wrong with Spiteful Spirit, SoS, SF, Splinter Barrage and HB/UA?

Those are all quite powerful, if used right.
Most pugs don't even have half as good builds as those...

Im still trying to work my way through the idea of "not even half as good as an SS" just trying to work out what kind of mad pug build that would be.

I think the OP is suggesting that the present meta in a PUG situation is viewed as highly unfavourable if one has the fortunate ability to chose 8 players from a pool of experienced players.

glacialphoenix · Dec 13, 2009, 02:28 PM // 14:28

Quote:

I think the OP is suggesting that the present meta in a PUG situation is viewed as highly unfavourable if one has the fortunate ability to chose 8 players from a pool of experienced players.

Then it wouldn't be a PUG, eh? If you actually had the ability to choose, I would say that's a group that you planned and thought about before hand, not a pick-up-group - unless it so happens that you really do have the luxury of picking up exactly what you want at the time you want to play.

Quote:

Im still trying to work my way through the idea of "not even half as good as an SS" just trying to work out what kind of mad pug build that would be.

It's possible. And sometimes it's a perfectly decent-looking SS bar, and then you find that the guy can't do anything with it. Or you have the SoS bar, but the rit appears to not realise that attacking spirits ought to be in range of the things they're supposed to be attacking.

In any case, I thought several threads established that PUG Meta tends to be stuff that everyone can recognise, and are therefore 'safer' to run.

Windf0rce · Dec 13, 2009, 02:30 PM // 14:30

I can't think of any area in the game that requires an ER Infuser in place of a Monk. It was debated to death in the ER Infuser thread, because Monks are enough to handle any area and the so called 'infuse spam' is not necessary to keep any decent team up.

Healer's Boon can be ok, if you have a Paragon (Imbagon), then running prot is quite redundant - might as well buff your heals as much as possible (I still prefer running WoH, though). But HB is not bad.

Signet of Spirits is insanely powerful and deserves a spot in any/most teams.

Everyone is tired, I mean really tired to hear "buffed melees pwns Guild Wars", it's no secret and most know it already. But surprise, not everyone wants to play melee, it is entirely possible to play with a more caster-based team and still clear areas fast enough.

HigherMinion · Dec 13, 2009, 02:36 PM // 14:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dorny

What's wrong with SS? (Spiteful Spirit, not Signet of Spirits) :S

And by common PuG builds, you mean "Animate Flesh Golem"?

Some lack of detail here...

The lack of detail is due to the fact that it's not about the builds themselves. It's the "pug theory" to build-making, and executing them.

But yes, a PUG MM would be running something like Animate Flesh Golem or Aura of The Lich- along with 3 different minion summoning skills.

Quote:

Then it wouldn't be a PUG, eh? If you actually had the ability to choose, I would say that's a group that you planned and thought about before hand, not a pick-up-group - unless it so happens that you really do have the luxury of picking up exactly what you want at the time you want to play.

When I pug, I take my time, and in places like ToA, or the latest Zaishen Quests where you can find any profession you want. It's YOUR party, and you should be able to atleast build your idea around your team. There's no point adding 7 random players and going 111111 without seeing their builds, going in blind.

Ping! Comment! Adjust their/your build! See if it synergises well with the rest of the team! GOGogoggogogogogoggogo!

Quote:

I can't think of any area in the game that requires an ER Infuser in place of a Monk. It was debated to death in the ER Infuser thread, because Monks are enough to handle any area and the so called 'infuse spam' is not necessary to keep any decent team up.

2x Monks can't do the shit we do in UW HM. Or rush through dungeons as fast as we can. It takes more time with real monks, waiting for their energy to regenerate after every mob or two.

Xenomortis · Dec 13, 2009, 02:39 PM // 14:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by DigitalFear

What's wrong with Spiteful Spirit, SoS, SF, Splinter Barrage and HB/UA?

Those are all quite powerful, if used right.
Most pugs don't even have half as good builds as those...

Splinter Barrage and SoS are fine. Although I rate GDW over Splinter.
Healer's Boon is ok, so long as your team has prots covered (one ER Ele and one HB monk is fine, but I would not recommend a prot and healer monk pair).
UA I rate lower than HB.

SS is crap compared to what else you could run. It's just really easy to run, that's all.

glacialphoenix · Dec 13, 2009, 02:39 PM // 14:39

Quote:

When I pug, I take my time, and in places like ToA, or the latest Zaishen Quests where you can find any profession you want. It's YOUR party, and you should be able to atleast build your idea around your team. There's no point adding 7 random players and going 111111 without seeing their builds, going in blind.

Ping! Comment! Adjust their/your build! See if it synergises well with the rest of the team! GOGogoggogogogogoggogo!

I ping, I comment, and I adjust my build, especially if I'm monking with another monk. I hate finding out that we're working against each other.

That being said, you mentioned a specific personal meta, which I would assume is significantly harder to find if you were to PUG. (I haven't seen any ER eles around when I PUG.) I agree that people should try their best to synergize with the team, but finding the profession you want and finding someone of that profession to run the bar is not the same. You'd probably find quite a few eles at any given moment, but do all of them have the necessary skills (and I mean skills, not ability) to run ER?

You shouldn't be going in blind, but with PUGs, by and large, you don't have the luxury to run exactly the build you want them to run. What you can do is make the best use of what is available to you. What is available to you is likely not going to be your version of 'ideal', not the same way you could set it up with 8 experienced players - but you can make it such that it at least passes the 'good enough' mark.

(You can tell I don't expect that much from PUGs.)

HigherMinion · Dec 13, 2009, 02:50 PM // 14:50

If you stand in the same outpost long enough, you will get there eventually. The only hard thing to find in my Meta is a secondary ER. The rest is easy to find. Physicals of any kind and necromancers are already half the demographic.

People know elementalists are terrible at nuking in Hard Mode; but monks can still smite/clean. This gives everyone a chance to be in your party, if they're competent.

Ranger. Barrage, generally. with whatever else the hell it likes.
Mesmer. EVAS spamming.
Ritualist. SoS Spammer.
Necromancer. MoP nuker.
Monk. SoH maintainer/condition/hex removal.
Elementalist. ER bond/infuser.
Assassin. Quick-activating chain, spamming Save Yourselves!
Dervish. See above.
Paragon. See above.
Warrior. See above.

Premium Unleaded · Dec 13, 2009, 05:12 PM // 17:12

Average Joe PUG is an idiot and has the bare minimum (if any) understanding of the game.
The problem is that it's still easy enough to win in PvE playing like a retard.

Also, SS compared to MoP is better when it comes to a fail/average pug group, as the chances of getting them to ball up a mob successfully is zero.

The Riven · Dec 13, 2009, 05:17 PM // 17:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Premium Unleaded

Also, SS compared to MoP is better when it comes to a fail/average pug group, as the chances of getting them to ball up a mob successfully is zero.

Both SS and MoP target adjacent foes, if MoP fails as there are no adjacent foes to trigger on then SS must fail for the same reason.

HigherMinion · Dec 13, 2009, 05:31 PM // 17:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Riven

Both SS and MoP target adjacent foes, if MoP fails as there are no adjacent foes to trigger on then SS must fail for the same reason.

Exactly. All you need to do is hope to god that the physicals target your calls.